Feb 19Liked by Justin Stapley, Jonathan Meilaender
Excellent piece. This is a movie made for our times though we have forgotten. Robert Shaw’s frenetic speech to More under the tree reminds me greatly of Trump’s phone call to Raffensperger.
You must also notice that had More taken the advice of Roper and arrested Rich, he may well have saved his own skin. More’s restraint is the foundation of liberalism but it killed him in a society bereft of such quaint notions. Donald Trump would call him a sucker, as I pointed out here:
We have forgotten that restraint and shared power is a vital component of our republic. We are all Boromir, dreaming of what we might do should someone but lend us the ring. When Sam told Galadriel that she should take the ring and she would quickly set things right, she said:
“I would. That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas!”
Jason, I did wonder about More's decision to let Rich go. But I couldn't quite decide what to make of it: as you say, it would be the right choice in our society, but in More's? It's less clear. Good to see your thoughts on it--undoubtedly liberalism doesn't work without civic virtue!
Feb 20Liked by Justin Stapley, Jonathan Meilaender
I think it was clearly the right thing to do and consistent with his integrity. That it killed him was the point and one that we were warned about by the likes of Adams and Franklin. Virtue is the limiting principle of liberty and without it, liberty cannot survive.
Feb 19Liked by Justin Stapley, Jonathan Meilaender
I think there are a couple of different types of people, Jonathan, and you and I (and probably most other readers) are one type, but many people aren’t. I agree with everything you wrote, perhaps most especially your conclusion. To us, the price of sniveling and groveling (for what? It’s not clear. A few more years of being “in the conversation?”) seems absurdly high. It’s almost an easy choice. If we care a great deal about our integrity and very little about the trappings of success, why on earth would we make decisions like so many in Trump’s orbit have made.
To other people, it’s almost an easy choice the other way. Tim Scott’s decision makes no sense to you and me, but it makes a lot of sense to them.
Ben, perhaps I'm too naive, but I still dare to hope that some of the Tim Scotts of the world are merely confused: they're trying to do a sort of cost-benefit analysis without understanding the long-term costs. Those, perhaps, can be convinced. And even the ones who genuinely don't care about integrity--well, maybe there's a spark of character inside, waiting to be lit! I hope so, anyway.
The important thing to remember is that if aren't prepared to embrace with open arms those that take steps away from Trumpism, they are disincentivized from ever taking those steps. I think this is a tremendous mistake I see so often from the most virulent of the Never Trump crowd. Just look at the treatment of Mike Pence. "He did the bare minimum any many should have done in his position, and after enabling Trump for so many years!" they cry, but if that's how Pence gets treated when he takes a stand, why would anyone else join him in his stance?
Oh I totally agree. I'm willing and ready to forgive and forget provided various figures genuinely put Trump behind them (as Pence and Christie and Haley have). Some of of those folks will need to come around if the Republican Party is ever to be sane post-Trump.
Precisely. There are a lot of Lincoln Project types who to have some sort of inquisitional purge at some point, and that's just not realistic. If we want to have a conservative party in America with a constituency large enough to win elections, it's going to have be made of a lot of people who voted for and supported Trump. That's just the reality of the logistics. The trick is to swing the pendulum back from the margins of nationalist populism to get all these folks back on board.
Agreed. That doesn’t mean I’ll pull my punches in talking about what I see as feckless cowardice, like Scott’s (or Cruz’s, or Rubio’s) groveling endorsement of Trump.
Excellent piece. This is a movie made for our times though we have forgotten. Robert Shaw’s frenetic speech to More under the tree reminds me greatly of Trump’s phone call to Raffensperger.
You must also notice that had More taken the advice of Roper and arrested Rich, he may well have saved his own skin. More’s restraint is the foundation of liberalism but it killed him in a society bereft of such quaint notions. Donald Trump would call him a sucker, as I pointed out here:
https://thebelltower.org/blog/f/the-tragedy-of-liberalism
We have forgotten that restraint and shared power is a vital component of our republic. We are all Boromir, dreaming of what we might do should someone but lend us the ring. When Sam told Galadriel that she should take the ring and she would quickly set things right, she said:
“I would. That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas!”
Jason, I did wonder about More's decision to let Rich go. But I couldn't quite decide what to make of it: as you say, it would be the right choice in our society, but in More's? It's less clear. Good to see your thoughts on it--undoubtedly liberalism doesn't work without civic virtue!
I think it was clearly the right thing to do and consistent with his integrity. That it killed him was the point and one that we were warned about by the likes of Adams and Franklin. Virtue is the limiting principle of liberty and without it, liberty cannot survive.
I think there are a couple of different types of people, Jonathan, and you and I (and probably most other readers) are one type, but many people aren’t. I agree with everything you wrote, perhaps most especially your conclusion. To us, the price of sniveling and groveling (for what? It’s not clear. A few more years of being “in the conversation?”) seems absurdly high. It’s almost an easy choice. If we care a great deal about our integrity and very little about the trappings of success, why on earth would we make decisions like so many in Trump’s orbit have made.
To other people, it’s almost an easy choice the other way. Tim Scott’s decision makes no sense to you and me, but it makes a lot of sense to them.
“Be brave while courage is cheap.”
A very important and underrated truth.
Ben, perhaps I'm too naive, but I still dare to hope that some of the Tim Scotts of the world are merely confused: they're trying to do a sort of cost-benefit analysis without understanding the long-term costs. Those, perhaps, can be convinced. And even the ones who genuinely don't care about integrity--well, maybe there's a spark of character inside, waiting to be lit! I hope so, anyway.
The important thing to remember is that if aren't prepared to embrace with open arms those that take steps away from Trumpism, they are disincentivized from ever taking those steps. I think this is a tremendous mistake I see so often from the most virulent of the Never Trump crowd. Just look at the treatment of Mike Pence. "He did the bare minimum any many should have done in his position, and after enabling Trump for so many years!" they cry, but if that's how Pence gets treated when he takes a stand, why would anyone else join him in his stance?
Oh I totally agree. I'm willing and ready to forgive and forget provided various figures genuinely put Trump behind them (as Pence and Christie and Haley have). Some of of those folks will need to come around if the Republican Party is ever to be sane post-Trump.
Precisely. There are a lot of Lincoln Project types who to have some sort of inquisitional purge at some point, and that's just not realistic. If we want to have a conservative party in America with a constituency large enough to win elections, it's going to have be made of a lot of people who voted for and supported Trump. That's just the reality of the logistics. The trick is to swing the pendulum back from the margins of nationalist populism to get all these folks back on board.
Agreed. That doesn’t mean I’ll pull my punches in talking about what I see as feckless cowardice, like Scott’s (or Cruz’s, or Rubio’s) groveling endorsement of Trump.